Hello and welcome back to Reading the Wheel of Time. A quick note before we start: I know that I’ve been a bit all over the place with communicating which chapters I’m covering each week. Mostly this is because I’ve fallen behind in my schedule and don’t always know/remember what I’m planning to cover the following week. Or it changes between postings. I am currently working on getting that organization back together, and will make sure to put “this week we’re covering X” at the beginning of each post and “next week we’ll do Y” at the end.
It is a privilege getting to share this experience with you all, and to be part of such a passionate community, especially in these difficult times.
Anyway, this week our read of The Shadow Rising will cover only one chapter, Chapter 33, in which Perrin gets to meet Lord Luc, has some strange conversations with Faile, and steps into a true leadership role. We also get the fun of watching him execute a rescue very similar to the one that Nynaeve, Moiraine, and Lan executed when Perrin and Egwene were prisoners, and the fun of watching Verin be extremely Verin-y.
Lord Luc comes in, finely dressed and looking every inch a lord. Perrin instantly despises him. The rest of the room, however, is nothing but excitement, everyone bowing and curtseying and grinning excitedly in their honor over a visit from a Hunter for the Horn. Perrin doesn’t like the way they are almost fawning over him, or the condescending way Lord Luc smiles back at them. They present Perrin and the rest to the Lord, explaining how he has been helping them, advising them in ways to defend themselves from the Trollocs and encouraging them to stand up to the Whitecloaks.
But Luc recognizes in Verin the ageless look of of the Aes Sedai, though he manages to hide his startled reaction from most of the room. He’s visibly tense to Perrin as they are introduced.
Verin smiled at him as if half-asleep. “A pleasure,” she murmured. “House Chiendelna. Where is that? It has a Borderland sound.”
“Nothing so grand,” Luc replied quickly, giving her a wary, fractional bow. “Murandy, actually. A minor house, but old.” He seemed uneasy about taking his eyes from her for the rest of the introductions.
He seems to dismiss Tomas out of hand, even though he must have realized that he was Verin’s Warder. He’s very attentive to Faile, however, at least until she tells him that she is also a Hunter for the Horn. She flushes under his attentions, irking Perrin further.
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But Lord Luc’s reaction to Perrin is the strangest of all, and the start he gives when he sees Perrin’s face is less like a reaction to his yellow eyes and more like he recognizes Perrin from somewhere and is surprised to see him in this context, although Perrin is certain they’ve never met before.
Jac tells them that having the boys on the roof as lookouts was Lord Luc’s idea, which Perrin dismisses as useless, given how well Trollocs can see in the dark.
“We do what we can,” Flann barked. “Stop trying to frighten us. There are children listening. Lord Luc at least offers helpful suggestions. He was at my place the day before the Trollocs came, seeing I had everybody placed properly. Blood and ashes! If not for him, the Trollocs would have killed us all.”
Luc did not seem to hear the praise offered him. He was watching Perrin cautiously while fussing with his gauntlets, tucking them behind the golden wolf’s-head buckle of his sword belt. Faile was watching him, too, with a slight frown. He ignored her.
Perrin reminds Flann that it was the Whitecloaks who saved him from the Trollocs, and Flann backpedals, stammering about what they could have done, eventually settling for “at least Lord Luc doesn’t try to frighten us.’
Perrin observes that Trollocs frighten him, and the Whitecloaks keep them back, when they can. Lord Luc attacks then, pointing out the ways the Whitecloaks stir up trouble in communities, stalking into people’s homes, spreading fear and distrust, turning neighbors against each other. He tells Perrin that if he wants to be a “Whitecloak dog” he can be, but he should leave the others their freedom.
Perrin met Luc’s eyes stare for stare. “I hold no affection for Whitecloaks. They want to hang me, or hadn’t you heard?”
The tall lord blinked as though he had not, or maybe had forgotten in his eagerness to spring. “Exactly what is it you do propose, then?”
Perrin explains that the reason the people are reliant on the Whitecloaks’ protection, such as it is, is because everyone is isolated and scattered. As long as each family tries to hang onto their own farm, or at least remain close to it, they have little ability to defend themselves from the Trollocs. And as long as they are such easy bait for the Trollocs (clusters of grapes, ripe for picking, is Perrin’s analogy) they have to suffer the Whitecloaks’ protection, and all that comes with it.
He reminds them of the imprisoned people, Haral and Alsbet Luhhan, Natti Cauthon, Bodewhin and Eldrin. There is some murmuring that of course it’s wrong, but it’s also over, and no one else has been arrested, but Perrin assures them it will happen again. Someone will say something the Children deem suspicious, or refuse to follow an order. He reminds them that some people will believe a dragon fang scrawled on a door: Even if nothing worse happens, do they really want to spend the rest of their lives bowing and scraping for the Whitecloaks? As long as they are at the mercy of one threat, they are at the mercy of all three.
After a moment, Jac asks Perrin what he would suggest instead.
Perrin was not expecting the question—he had been sure they would get angry—but he went right on telling them what he thought. “Gather your people. Gather your sheep and your cows, your chickens, everything. Gather them up and take them where they might be safe. Go to Emond’s Field. Or Watch Hill, since it’s closer, though that will put you right under the Whitecloaks’ eyes. As long as it’s twenty people here and fifty there, you are game for Trolloc taking. If there are hundreds of you together, you have a chance, and one that doesn’t depend on bowing your necks for the Whitecloaks.”
That does bring the arguments he expected, families talking over each other about what will happen to their farms without them there. But Perrin cuts them off, reminding him that homes can be rebuilt and fields replanted, but human lives can’t be. He tells them that it is their choice, of course, but that Trollocs can’t carry off the land; they can, however, carry off someone’s family.
When he’s finished there is a buzz of discussion among the people, and little arguing. Lord Luc, his face unreadable, remarks that Perrin’s plan is “interesting” and that he will wait to see how it turns out. And then he leaves, without as much attention paid to his departure as was to his arrival.
It doesn’t take much more discussion before everyone is on board with Perrin’s plan, and Jac decides to lead everyone down to Emond’s Field, gathering up others along the way. He is worried, however, that the inexplicable movements might make the Whitecloaks suspicious and put the captives in danger. Perrin assures him he intends a rescue.
Coming up to Perrin, Verin remarks that she has never had the opportunity to see it work before, confusing him.
“Perrin, when we arrived these people were ready to hold on here at all costs. You gave them good sense and strong emotion, but do you think the same from me would have shifted them, or from Tam, or Abell? Of any of us, you should know how stubborn Two Rivers people can be. You have altered the course events would have followed in the Two Rivers without you. With a few words spoken in … irritation? Ta’veren truly do pull other people’s lives into their own pattern. Fascinating. I do hope I have an opportunity to observe Rand again.”
“Whatever it is,” Perrin muttered, “it’s to the good. The more people together in one place, the safer.”
Verin asks after Rand and Callandor, then warns Perrin to be wary of Alanna before turning back to her air of distraction. He has a brief but confusing discussion with Faile about a bit of flirting she did with one of the local boys and her interest in Lord Luc, where she first apologizes and then gets cross with him for forgiving her. And then it is time for them to go, and their horses are brought.
Four young men decide to come with them, rather than to ride to Emond’s field, and Perrin is unable to dissuade them. They seem to think of it more like a gleeman’s adventure than serious business, but no one except Perrin seems concerned, so he relents. Faile plaits a crown of flowers and gives it to Perrin, who lays it across the pommel of his saddle.
They ride off, and after a brief bit of alarm and confusion when the Aiel rejoin them, they continue on. Each time they pass a farm, though, Perrin stops to give the same advice, and each time the occupants of the farms listen to him, packing up their things and heading for Emond’s Field. Their own party also grows as more young men join them, which results in a lot of confusion and hubbub until Perrin finally lays down the law, telling them that this isn’t a game and that they must follow orders or go home.
Tam and Abell take them to a thicket where they can observe the Whitecloak camp without being seen. Leaving the boys behind, the three of them, along with Faile, Tomas, Verin, and the Aiel creep to where they can observe the camp. Abell points out the tent where the prisoners are being held, and admits that they’ve tried to creep into the camp themselves but could not make it past the careful watch. Perrin decides he needs to think on the problem for a while.
Perrin realizes that he’s been giving orders to the older men—to everyone—for some time now, and is perplexed by it. He hadn’t felt like he was taking charge, but both Abell and Tam assure him that he is doing well before heading off to take care of the rest of the group, as Perrin instructed. Verin simply remarks that Perrin may not be shifting the world as Rand is, but he is certainly moving the Two Rivers, though she wonders if he knows where to. Once she’s left, Faile expresses a possessive concern over the fact that she won’t leave Perrin alone.
They all talk over their options, and Perrin knows that they have to get the prisoners out immediately, since news of his presence in the Two Rivers will spread quickly. They settle down to wait till nightfall, and since Perrin knows he can’t stop her from following him, instead orders her to stay close. She remarks that close to him sounds like a fine idea, and puts the crown of flowers on his head. He feels foolish, but leaves it there anyway.
When the time comes, Perrin leaves Tam behind to keep everyone ready to ride the moment they return with the rescued prisoners, at which point he will lead them to hide in a farmhouse he knows. Perrin also instructs the Aiel to try not to kill anyone, since that will only incite more problems with the Whitecloaks, and heads off into the night with Faile, glad that it is too dark for her to see the fear of losing her on his face.
The stamping guards at the perimeter of the camp are easy enough to avoid, and Perrin leads the way through the dark camp, able to see where they are going even in the darkness of the night. At one point they are spotted by a Whitecloak, who knocks Faile down before throwing himself onto Perrin and nearly strangling him to death. But Faile recovers and knocks him out cold with a piece of firewood.
They tie him up and Perrin takes his cloak, hoping that if anyone sees them they’l mistake Perrin for one of their own. They hurry through the camp, knowing the downed Whitecloak could be found at any moment, and when they reach the tent, the Aiel quickly take out the two guards.
At the sight of Perrin in a white cloak, they nearly went for him, until they saw Faile. One shook her head and whispered to the other, who appeared to laugh silently.
Perrin told himself he should not feel disgruntled, but first Faile saved him from being strangled, and now she saved him from a spear through his liver. For somebody who was supposedly leading a rescue, he was making a fine showing so far.
They carefully wake the prisoners, and dress the Luhhans in the other cloaks and helmets. Perrin knows that they won’t be able to leave silently, but he’s already planned to steal horses and make a swift escape—the picket lines are only guarded on the outside, after all. They get to the horses without fuss, but just as Perrin is about to give the word there is a shout of alarm from the camp, and he shouts for everyone to follow him. They rush out, and the guards are so unprepared for trouble inside the camp that they are able to dash through, one Whitecloak throwing himself out of the way of the horses with a cry.
They reach Tam, and Perrin has to cut off the rounds of premature questions, congratulations, and celebration. He sends the rescued party, along with Faile, the Aiel, and two of the boys, off with Tam to the hiding place, instructing them to move quietly, rather than quickly. The rest he prepares to lead off west.
Verin and Tomas had stayed behind, and he eyed her sharply. “Any chance of a little help from you?”
“Not the way you mean, perhaps,” she replied calmly, as though the Whitecloak camp were not in turmoil just a mile off. “My reasons are no different today than yesterday. But I think it might rain in… oh… half an hour. Maybe less. Quite a downpour, I expect.”
Perrin turns to the remaining Two Rivers boys, and tells them that their job now is to draw off the Whitecloaks, keeping them off the trail of the rescued prisoners until they can lose the Whitecloaks in the rain. He gives anyone who wants the ability to leave, but none do, and they ride off towards the North Road, whooping and hollering, the horns of the Whitecloaks sounding behind them.
“Perrin,” Wil called, leaning forward on the neck of his horse, “what do we do now? What do we do next?”
“We hunt Trollocs!” Perrin shouted over his shoulder. From the way the laughter redoubled, he did not think they believed him. But he could feel Verin’s eyes drilling into his back. She knew. Thunder in the night sky echoed the horses’ hooves.
Evidence that Lord Luc is slayer, a list:
- He reacted to Perrin as if he had seen him before, but Perrin doesn’t recognize him, which would make sense since Perrin did not see Slayer’s face in the Dream.
- He has a wolf’s-head buckle on his fancy belt.
- He is stuck up but also useless, which is exactly the kind of person who would be an animal murderer.
- He wants to fight Perrin for control over the people but gives up quite easily, kind of like how Slayer fled at the first sight of him.
Granted, a few of those reasons are a bit more petty than others. Either way, I feel like there’s probably a lot more to Luc than meets the eye. I’m curious how much of his haughty and disinterested attitude is an act, if he actually is Slayer; I imagine there’s more cunning and danger hidden behind his fancy appearance. Also, what is his motivation for being involved in Two Rivers affairs? Even if he is what he claims to be, just some Hunter for the Horn, his altruism seems dubious, as he’s not actually doing anything or leading anyone, nor is he getting anything apparent out of lending his aid.
I did enjoy the somewhat petty way Perrin engaged with his dislike for the man, especially “So Luc wanted to know where the Horn of Valere was? It was hidden away in the White Tower, that was where. He was tempted to tell the man, just to make him grind his teeth in frustration.” Also, the sassy retort about the Whitecloaks wanting to hang him was gold.
Verin has been very interesting to watch these past few chapters, especially because Perrin’s hyper-observant nature means we get to catch all those little shifts in her personality as she pretends to be an absent-minded Brown. (I also loved the way she used it on Lord Luc after he recognized that she was Aes Sedai.) Her interest in Perrin’s newfound leadership skills are no less than my own; I’m thinking of Tam’s observation from earlier about how Perrin might not know what to look for to see the signs that he is ta’veren. We, the readers, also struggle with this problem where Perrin and Mat are concerned. Because Rand’s power is so much greater we can see effects that can’t be written off by other factors, like the rash of weddings and other strange events he left behind him while traveling in The Dragon Reborn. But now we have someone in the narrative actually pointing out what’s going on.
Verin tells him that he spoke with good sense and strong emotion, but that those same words from her or Tam or Abell would not have shifted people who were ready to hold on at all costs:
“You have altered the course events would have followed in the Two Rivers without you… Ta’veren truly do pull other people’s lives into their own pattern.”
What I wonder is, does she have any reason to believe this, other than the ones she gives, like some extrasensory Aes Sedai perception that helps her feel the tug of Perrin’s ta’veren power, like Siuan can. (Loial also mentions at one point that there is a Talent related to being able to feel the Pattern move around a ta’veren.) That doesn’t seem to be the case, here, however which would mean that she is making something of an assumption. She can’t know for sure that no one else would have been able to stir the people as Perrin did, because no one else actually tried. She can’t know for certain that another with the same conviction and the same leadership couldn’t have done it too.
There is something weirdly hierarchical about the nature of the Pattern. I can’t quite decide how I feel about it. When Loial first explains it to Rand, he explains that while the Pattern is not always fixed, it sometimes will not accept changes, especially big changes, no matter how much someone tries. But with ta’veren, the Wheel chooses the change for the person, and that changes forces other threads to swirl around them. I suppose in the end there isn’t much difference in how much free will is involved in either of these scenarios, but it feels weird to suggest that the ability to affect change is preordained somehow.
I keep thinking about the analogy people use sometimes about how small actions can have a big effect. They compare it to throwing a pebble in a pond: The initial splash is small, but the ripples move outward, expanding as they go. The Pattern is a tapestry, not a pond, but in this comparison, only a ta’veren would get any ripples from their initial splash.
However, the way Verin phrases it might provide a slightly different interpretation than the one I’m outlining here, as she specifically says that Perrin is pulling people into his own pattern. We’ve seen Mat’s luck powers shape events through improbable chances, but we’ve never seen him affect people’s minds. With Rand we’ve seen both—there were the towns where the crops died or the wells dried up, but we’ve also had examples of him affecting people’s mental states or even the moment in the Heart of the Stone when everyone could feel his will drawing them in. With Perrin, Verin seems to be suggesting that he is bending people’s minds to his own will. He isn’t directly affecting events (no Whitecloaks tripped over and knocked themselves out at the perfect moment, for instance) but he is changing people’s minds to match his own.
And that brings us back to this question of free will. I’m not sure how much free will is being exercised by the farmers Perrin is affecting with his ta’veren power. But the reason he is drawing them along is because he has made a choice, one that I don’t believe had anything to do with the Pattern forcing his hand. In deciding to fight, even when it means enacting violence, Perrin is choosing a path which will change the Two Rivers, as it has changed Perrin himself. He doesn’t think of it as a choice anymore than he thinks of what he is doing now as being a soldier and a leader, but what Perrin calls “doing what needs to be done” could just as easily be called “stepping up to the plate” or “choosing to do the right thing.” And if he is applying his ta’veren powers to bring that same choice about in others, that’s actually really interesting.
Perrin really is my favorite character. Also, it is really hard to talk about ta’veren because it’s not really a noun? It’s mostly used as an adjective. Except when it is used as a noun and it is very confusing thank you Jordan.
Everyone is in agreement that the Whitecloaks will take the changes in the Two Rivers—not to mention the rescue of the prisoners—as a sign of plotting and maybe Darkfriend activity. But I personally am more curious how Ordeith-Fain will react to Perrin’s rescue of the prisoners. They were his bait, after all, but not his only play, or his biggest one. Part of me thinks he’ll be more focused on upping the destruction in the Two Rivers—which is probably what he’s planning to use his captured Fade for—to draw Rand’s attention, and might not want to spare a lot of thought for the “tidbits” he lost. On the other hand, Perrin might not be Rand but he is one of the ones that Ordeith hates. And Ordeith is definitely the sort to throw a fit about distributions to his plans just on principle.
I really enjoyed the rescue section, because it is so much like the first time we saw someone get rescued from the Whitecloak camp. I remember Nynaeve lying in the grass watching the guards stomp around, and Lan appearing out of the dark to take Byar out as neatly as the Aiel do here. Also, Perrin definitely got the idea to wear the cloaks from Lan putting them on him and Egwene. And of course there’s the stealing of the picket horses, easily accomplished from inside the camp where no one is on their guard. The narration doesn’t really spend any time on Perrin actually making his plan, so we just get to draw those parallels on our own and it is excellent.
Speaking of the Aiel, what is going on with Bain and Chiad and their weird energy with Gaul? Something seems to be shifting from their uneasy water-oath truce.
There is something going on with Faile. The whole flower crown thing seems somehow more than an idle game she’s playing with him, although I’m not sure what. Some kind of declaration of intent, maybe, a way of indicating they are together, like a jock giving his girlfriend his letterman jacket, or the Hawaiian tradition of putting a flower behind your left ear to show that you’re in a relationship/unavailable. I think her need to apologize to Perrin for flirting with Wil and blushing at Lord Luc is partly what brings me to that feeling. It’s hard to say so more specifically, because all their interactions are still put in that annoying Perrin-can’t-tell-what she’s-thinking-or-if-he-said-the-wrong-thing way, which I’m quite over now. They should start being able to understand each other better as their relationship deepens. I mean, I know it won’t happen because women aren’t people, they’re the sun, but a guy can dream, right?
Next week is Chapter 34 and 35, with Rand and Mat returning from Rhuidean and Egwene getting to catch up on what Elayne and Nynaeve are doing. I’ve been nervous for them since Perrin’s dream vision, so it’ll be good to check in. Until then I wish you all a very good week. Stay safe, take care, and wash your hands!
Sylas K Barrett actually got chills at the end of this chapter. We hunt Trollocs! He could almost get behind hunting some Trollocs himself, right about now.
Very fun read Sylas!
I can, however, see two things that are going to annoy me that I wish I could bring to Sylas’ attention. First, Perrin and Faile have known each other a few months. Books 3-6 all take place in the year 999 according to the timelines I can find. Second, Perrin and Faile come from VERY different cultures and because Faile is currently the only one from Saldaea, Sylas doesn’t yet appreciate how different that culture is. Not to mention the hidden fact that she’s royalty and he’s a commoner.
I know it can get frustrating when we read about the same issues over the course of years (or decades for the original readers), but it really is understandable when you understand the true timeline and the vast cultural divide between them.
And the Whitecloaks really need to write up a report and action plan on this rash of camp infiltrations.
“Perrin is my favorite character”
Yeah, bookmark that one for about three books hence.
I think of ta’veren via the gravity analogy – if you stretch a sheet out in the air and drop a couple of marbles on it, they don’t displace the threads of the sheet very much. But if you put a bowling ball on it, the whole thing warps.
“I know it won’t happen because women aren’t people, they’re the sun, but a guy can dream, right?” – hah, this made me laugh :)
Oh, there is definitely more to Slayer/Luc than meets the eye; it will be fun to watch it uncovered.
I know that “Lord Luc” turns out to be a quite dangerous character, but these first few appearances make me thing of Gilderoy Lockhart . . .
@2: My sentiments exactly. Still waiting for the moment Mat overtakes Perrin as the favorite (for me, it happened when he ran into Talmanes for the first time). Also, great analogy for ta’averen.
There’s not much debate to free will in this world. There’s very little of it.
IMO, Perrin is never as cool or as likable as he is in this book until he creates his hammer at the very end of the series. It really is a shame.
Perrin’s character arc is basically done at the end of this book. Which is why he spends most of the rest of the series spinning his wheels and repeating the same character beats.
Throwing my hat in the ring! I have always connected with Perrin the most out of the three ta’veren and that never changed — even when we get to the slog. I think Mat gets a lot of praise because he is the ideal male. He is the playboy who gets dragged into greatness. It creates a fun story. But there is something about Perrin’s character and demeanor that just make me identify with him.
I think Sylas is right about the flower crown being a declaration of intent by Faile, she then flirts with other men because, according to the weird domination games that are a normal Saldean relationship Perrin is supposed to indicate his interest and intent by yelling at her. She was disappointed but not discouraged since she knows in her head that Perrin is a foreigner but her gut keeps wanting him to act the way she’s been taught men in love should act.
One of the early paragraphs begins:
“Lord Luc comes in, finally dressed”
I think Sylas means “finely dressed” – I don’t think Luc was undressed previously.
@10 – Fixed, thanks.
It didn’t occur to me until just now, but Faile has been hanging out with Bane and Chiad, and a flower ring is awfully similar to a wreath…
@6,7 I agree, this is Perrin’s peak because it is such a nice completion of his arc. And like Chad says, he actually stays my favorite, though the slog is hard.
@@.-@, I love the comparison!
@8 The one disagreement I have is that I think Perrin is the ideal male – gentle, yet protective. But maybe that makes him the ideal “man” while the ideal “male” is one who gets to “sow his seed” and rise to acclaim and fame. Now you’ve got me thinking…
@6:
There’s plenty of free will. It’s just that 99.999% of people exercising their free will have very little effect on what the “pattern” looks like—the large scope of history. That’s the entire point of the metaphor.
That’s the part of this philosophy we moderns struggle with — we all think we’re gods when in reality, we are microorganisms living on the backs of ants.
@12:
Ding, ding, ding. Yes, she braided him a bridal wreath. RJ is setting this up here for the conversation that happens in a few chapters between Rand and Aviendha. Jordan is particularly good at that in this book and the next one. He slips things in before he explains them in a different POV.
@13 Now that I think on it, Perrin and Mat are two opposing definitions of what it means to be a man. It all depends on your culture and focus.
Perrin is the archetype for the family man. He is devoted to one person despite temptations and is loyal, humble and soft-spoken. He only raises his voice when needed and is thoughtful and considerate.
Mat is the archetype for the man’s man. He has many lovers and no commitments. He is wild but yet he has a soft spot for children and women in need.
I think both definitions are valid but they point to different values. If you get a bunch of guys together at the bar and had them define a man, Mat would fit the picture. If you get these same men in a church group explaining what it is to be a man, Perrin would fit the picture.
@8, 13;
All three boys represent different kinds of traditional masculine ideals. Of the three, Perrin is the most “Heartland America” — the strong and silent Provider.
@15:
I would argue that Mat is more of a “Ladies’ Man” and Rand is the “Man’s man.” Rand is the quarterback—Tom Brady, Brett Favre, tall, more obviously a leader, more vocal but not talkative. But it’s all subjective anyway.
@12 – Kudos. I have never thought about this before.
@14 – my favorite POV trick is in EOTW, where Moiraine explains channeling by someone with the Spark to Nyn in Listening to the Wind – and, if you are clever, you could look back to see where Rand fits the pattern in leaving the Two Rivers and in Baerlon. Really, really skillfully done by RJ.
@14 – The 99% have their free will overridden by the Pattern. Look at the ta’veren effect on the people around them.
@18
Who says they had their free will overridden? The Pattern is operating at a much deeper level. It may be that Perin just said the right things in the right way to affect these people the way the pattern needed. I think it is a bit of an interesting philosophical conundrum, even if it is just an in world explanation for hero-syndrome-things-happen-for-the-plot.
oh and Silas, this made me laugh out loud:
Better buckle up there. It’s going to be a long ride.
@19 – The Pattern literally struck down the false dragons. Like straight up struck them down. What the Pattern wants, it gets. People are just a cog in the machine.
Party time! Trollocs & Myrddraal, Perrin & Faile, Whitecloacks, Fain, Aiel, Tinkers, Aes Sedai, Warders, Aiel, and Slayer/Luc/Isam (technically one person but playing multiple character roles), all in the good old Two Rivers! I wouldn’t want to be in this time and place (or most times and places throughout WOT), but as a reader, this is among my favorite sections of the series post-TGH. So is the upcoming sojourn in the Waste, putting TSR alongside TEOTW and TGH as my three favorite WOT books.
I find it interesting that nobody in the Two Rivers seems to note any similarity in appearance between Luc and Rand. They’re tall men with dark red hair, but I guess Rand doesn’t otherwise resemble his uncle. Which surprises me, given that Janduin didn’t fight Luc because he looked like Shaiel (Tigraine), even though she was golden-haired. I guess Rand looks more like Janduin, though I don’t recall if any Aiel ever say so. Mind you, my visual impairment prevents me from seeing the details of people’s faces except at very close range, so I’m used to thinking of people as looking similar or different based on things like hair and height, not smallee features.
Sylas doesn’t want to know how Fain made the Myrddraal fear him, but I do. Natch.
I don’t reread the portion of a book covered by a postuntil the post goes up, as this can be uncertain or change, but it’s helpful to see the coverage noted at the top of the post. So thank you.
By the way, Neuxue recently began liveblogging TOM after a many-month hiatus following the end of the TGS liveblog, noted in case any fans of hers here have stopped checking.
I love this is the opening line of analysis. Now wait and see how long until anyone in-story clicks.
@2: Enh, it’s not like everyone else in Randland has half a clue, and three times a donkey’s allotment of stubbornness, and a failure to communicate.
Except Verin. She’s got all the clues.
Some very interesting viewpoints on Ta’veren and its manifestation & wider effects.
But before that can I say to Sylas… Actually, no, I’ll just leave it at the hope you enjoy the peak the Perrin-Faile relationship will hit soon here… Time will tell.
Back to Ta’veren manifestation, I never thought of it as the subjugation of free will, more the clever in-world harnessing of the nature of influence. And what makes it specifically successful for me, within WoT is that it is not singular or definitive, but uniquely applied to each of the boys.
Rand is the eye of the storm, his nature so strong he is like a travelling circus of the infinite possibilities in nature. Where Perrin & Mat seem more targeted to their need at the time, at least as far as I could see within the narrative. (Although Mat, at least is depicted as the conduit for potential future progression militarily).
I don’t however, see any subjugation of will. No-one was stopped from doing what they wanted to do. Or made to do what they otherwise wouldn’t or couldn’t. Timelines might have been accelerated but what occurred was not beyond the bounds of possibility.
A lack of success in our endeavors is not an example of our free will being crushed. The False Dragons for example, were defeated, not stopped from doing what they wanted to do. They didn’t suddenly decide, ‘I don’t want to be The Dragon anymore.’
Rand’s manifestation in the sky battling Ishamael just put their attempts into a kind of cosmic RandLand perspective.
In these specific Chapters, I don’t see Perrin’s nature negating anyone’s free will. The people want to protect their families. He helps them realise the best way to do that. And unlocks their sense of community, by giving them the opportunity to decide to contribute to a wider one.
Ta’veren is one of Jordan’s most successful devices, not least because it creates an endless knot of possibility, from an otherwise mundane manifestation of the plot engine.
There are a few really blatant examples of ta’veren straight up overriding what someone else was going to do. The single clearest one I can think of is Mat’s ‘bargain’ with the Sea Folk, but there are others scattered throughout the series — including, in this very book, Mat’s tagging along with Rand.
@Free will conversation
I believe free will to some extent has to exist in this universe. The whole of the DOs plot is to get the Dragon to exert his free will and use his ta’veren nature to steer the ship off course and break the circular pattern. So either the DO is ignorant of this fact or free will exists.
Also, wasn’t RJ a physics major at the Citadel? I think his musings on metaphysics are strongly evident in the first few books. He lays out the idea of alternate realities with the portal stones and the three door ter’angreal. I think this shows that he is of the belief that all realities exist simultaneously and all realities are possible. But, unlike our reality, for a cyclical history, everything must continually be reset to zero. This makes it really, really hard for some characters to stray from a path and gives a semblance of predestined events. But in a way the giving of one’s self over to one’s ta’veren nature is the act of free will to follow a certain course. Following as the “weave wills” persay.
@12 @14 and others: I’ve read through the series multiple times, so now when I read about the flowers Faile gives Perrin, I automatically know that she has been influenced by talking to the Aiel. Probably never caught it the first time I read though when we get Avi’s explanation later. Had to be on the second read through and after. This series is so much better on subsequent reads IMO.
Perrin awesomeness: I’ve always liked Perrin, but yes he gets annoying during the slog, but I still understood all his worrying. It’s probably what I would be doing if I was him. Of coarse I’m no hero of an epic either. I’m also one of the few who likes Faile overall. Yes, she does some annoying and stupid things in spots, but I love how she grows after Malden. I think they are both great from book 11 on.
Anyway, just throwing in my 2 cents. Please all be safe and be kind to all.
@12 – holy hell, that’s one I missed until just now, and I’m reading this book right now for the umpteenth time in preparation for the show
@14 – that conversation may happen as well, but Aviendha explains the bridal wreaths/cultural mating dances of the Aiel to Elayne, Egwene, & Nynaeve a bit earlier while they’re all still in the Stone of Tear, I just read that bit a couple of days ago.
Regarding free will, aren’t there a couple times where people throw off Ta’veren influence and go against what it seems the pattern wants? Tuon and Rand comes to mind – where he tries to bend her to his will and all these signs appear and everything and she still fights out to say “no”. Maybe that’s the only one, though something else is tickling the back of my mind… but either way, it does appear that you can choose, even with all of Rand/the Pattern’s will pushing on you.
I think Verin is quite confident that there is no House Chiendelna. I also suspect that she has alredy figured out which lord Luc this is.
Verin says that a ta’veren would be useful in any number of Aes Sedai plans. I have to disagree. A ta’veren is more likely to upend any plans they touch. Just ask Moiraine.
Perrin is surprised that Faile obeys him, but it seems to not occur to him that she may be following Marin al’Vere’s advice, even though he has observed how similar it was to Abell Cauthon’s advice.
Sylas seems to have overlooked that Slayer in the Wolf Dream had dark hair while Luc’s hair is reddish, and that although Perrin doesn’t recognize Luc, he thought Slayer looked familiar somehow even from a distance.
That difference exists but it’s not absolute. For example, Mat had no trouble at all convincing Thom to come with him to Caemlyn, and later people everywhere are suspiciously eager to join the Band of the Red Hand. As for Perrin, it’s a rather improbable event that Luc visits Jac al’Seen’s farm at the same time as Perrin. That Elyas Machera happened to be right in Perrin’s path just in time for his wolfbrother metamorphosis was even more improbable. And how about the ease with which Perrin and Faile sneak into the whitecloak camp where Tam and Abell have failed three times? So Mat has extreme luck but people also follow him, while Perrin mostly makes people follow him but also has luck at times.
@AeronaGreenjoy (21):
Elayne at least said that Rand resembled a portrait of Tigraine.
Those who claim that there is little free will should consider this quote by Shai’tan:
and this one by the Dragon:
People who have been Turned, either to the Dark One or to the Light, are puppets. They have no free will. Anyone who has not been Turned can make choices.
But their choices aren’t unaffected by circumstances. Free will doesn’t mean to single-mindedly go your own way regardless of what happens around you. Humans aren’t windowless monads. The function of a brain is to react to stimuli. The brain constantly takes in new information – events that happen and things that people say – compares it to past experiences, and chooses to act in the way that seems best in the situation at hand. Choosing based on available information doesn’t make you a puppet. It makes you human.
Now that you mention it, I also suspect Verin identified Luc. She had read the Dark Prophecy about him and Isam meeting in the Mountains of Dhoom where “one lived and one died, but both remain,” indicating that he might be at large in the world (while everyone else who knew about him thinks he’s dead), and she might know what the royal family looked like in Tigraine’s time. Now I wonder what she thought when the Trollocs used “Isam” as a battle cry, and how much self-control she needed to react with a simple murmured “Interesting,” and the whole thing has me laughing.
So Rand and Luc both resemble Tigraine in some way or another, but don’t bear a very striking resemblance to each other, even though they’re both redheads and Tigraine was blonde. Got it.
@30 In a later book (or is it later in this one?), one or more of the Supergirls catches a glimpse of Slayer in Tel’aran’rhiod, and they remark that “he could have been Rand’s uncle. If Rand had a mean uncle.”
So, the family resemblance is there to those who notice. The question then is, why didn’t Perrin notice (other than to preserve the mystery)?
Maybe Perrin just doesn’t have an eye for resemblances? Not everyone is good at spotting such things.
@31 People have different facial recognition cues as mentioned above and there are definitely patterns of what we think of when we say X looks just like their family member that don’t make logical sense.
Growing up, everyone said I looked just like my dad – until suddenly everyone thought I looked like exactly my mom when I dyed my naturally blonde hair dark purple. Even though I have brown eyes and yellow-tone skin like my mom and bone structure that is an almost exact half-and-half attribution to each parent, it was the darker hair that made people think I looked like my mom.
Moral of the story, facial recognition is weird. I imagine it’s weirder in a fantasy land without cameras or internet for quick accurate comparison.
I admit I have lower than average facial memory. I am just as likely to recognize people by the way they walk and the sound of their voice as I am by their bone structure, especially if I don’t know them well. Which could be how Perrin “recognizes” Lord Luc but can’t place where he’s seen him
Yeah, I can sometimes recognize someone by their voice if I hear it often enough. Anything more visually-subtle than hair, clothing, and a body’s size and overall shape is undetectable to me except at very close range. It feels like almost every day when I’m out among people in the town where I’ve spent most of my life, I encounter someone or other who knows me but who I don’t recognize. Endless awkwardness. Though I would be glad to resume dealing with it, if I could be among people again.
@28 I believe the other scene you’re thinking of is Rand’s confrontation with Egwene at the start of ToM.
Dyelin and other nobles in Andor notice that Rand looks like Tigraine.
I mean, the only people we know of who know Rand and his biological parents, the Aiel Wise Ones, explicitly compare Rand’s resemblance to both of them and say he favours one over the other.
Unfortunately I can’t recall *which* and don’t have my copy on hand to check :(
@37
You have something of her in your features,’ Seana said as though reading his thoughts. She had settled herself cross-legged with a small silver cup of wine. ‘Less of Janduin.’
@38:
Thanks!
Thanks. I read this book 14 years ago and most of the subsequent ones in quick succession, so I didn’t remember that.
@20:
Free will most certainly does NOT mean that people are always free to do whatever they please, or that they will always accomplish what they seek. There is always someone stronger than you who can force you to do something against your will. There are always circumstances that conspire to keep someone from doing a thing they want to do. This doesn’t mean free will doesn’t exist. It’s just of more limited value than we usually like to think.
I don’t suppose there’s any way that self-isolation means we might look forward to 2 posts a week, is there???
@38: I don’t put a lot of weight on that, given that *everyone* through the first three books said things like “wrap a shoufa around your head and you could be Aiel” – along with the Maidens in the Stedding in TGH being scandalised that Rand was holding a sword. Virtually every face Seana has ever seen has been Aiel, so she’s very good at picking out differences between Aiel faces, but probably less familiar with wetlander faces so she can see Shaiel very clearly in Rand (but possibly would say the same about Elayne who isn’t related to Tigraine at all).